I belong to the Bluffton Mens Club made up of mostly retired professionals. For a yearly fee ( and a fact for later is they have about 4K surplus in the treasury ) we meet once a month for dinner and a speaker. We also have special events like a Fish Fry and an Oyster Roast and an annual Xmas "Party" at an upscale restaurant. I put party in quotes because to me its just not a party. I haven't attended the Xmas party because they have no entertainment and its just sounds like a boring night.
A few months before the "party" the subject of entertainment came up and the name of a former member who used to play it for free was mentioned. I cringed because I knew they had now been led to believe entertainment shoud be free. The discussion ended with the guy in charge of the party said "some people complained about music because they want to talk " UGGGH !!!
So this free guy couldn't play softly thru dinner ???
Well they had the party and at this months meeting congrats were given to the organizer but then the President of the club said "I think we need some entertainment next time" AKA---- it WAS boring
Same answer given but this time the organized said we'll look into it.
Still with me ? Now my anticipated problem.
Some the members know I perform and some have even seen me at jobs. I'm afraid my name will be mentioned and all eyes will be on me for an answer if asked to play. Now its not about the money but I just have a thing about people demeaning our craft and expecting it for free. I have done a number of free events for local charities here but this club in not a Charity. They are very welll off, sort of like a Country Club without golf.
When new members join and ask what do we do the answer is "Nothing LOL "
How do I answer such a request if it should come up ???
I could use the old "hire a plumber for the night and I'll do it for half that" but I just don't want to come off as sarcastic.

So how will you feel if, knowing that some members have seen you perform, and they DIDN'T ask you? Double-edged sword .

chas

I'd say those who heard Bill would never expect him to play for free, so why ask?

Lot of folks want something for nothing. I had a call yesterday who asked if I would take a cut and I said NO. "We only have $110 left for the month". Too bad, I thought. Went back to playing my stupid music in a room and wondered what the hell I'm doing in this industry.

When I get frustrated/disheartened like that, I chuck it off and let the next freebie musician take it.

A bit later I got a call from a new place and booked full price.

Bottom line, if you are worth it, stick to your guns and things will work out - they always seem to balance.

Chas
I really don't care either way. They may decide not to have any music again and if they do my name may never be mentioned by those who've seen me. Maybe they would realize they're putting me on the spot. I would like to do it because most of these members live in some of the more upscale communities and it may be a good audition for the future but I also hate the E word "exposure"
BTW I know where these members heard me and it was very sucessful gig so no worries about me being able to handle it. They all had a great time.
Zuki
I agree with sticking to my fee but having to do that can make me look like a bad guy. I remember caving on a price for an very rich CC because the guy who asked me had me playing at his restaurant. After I did it I was mad at myself and felt I was taken advantage of.

simple Bill...put it to a vote of the membership at a meeting Entertainment YES or NO hands Up,...majority rules....
why put yourself thru that crap your retired and enjoying life now..
why be under the microscope all the time.... go find a club that has fun & good time somewhere..

Bill,

I was thinking the same thing as I read your post.

Regards,

Jerryghr

Bingo, they will continue to do so. I'm happy when a low pay AD leaves where I've had a good track record. The next comes in, I charge more and it usually works out fine. I refuse to digress unless it is absolutely necessary.

many times it's not the AD's fault it is the budget they are given for the year and they have to make due stretching it out for entertainment,......if someone isn't happy with the pay level big deal just move on there are so many others out there that will pay what you need. Think about it $100, $125, $150.00+ for the hour even at $100.00 per hr that is still 10x more then working in McDonalds , or minimum wages at $8.00 per hr somewhere, etc, for an hour,...see what I'm saying?...sometimes we don't realize how good we have it in the trenches & how lucky we are top play music and they pay you too.

$100. per hour BUT...
Travel each way, from 30 minutes to 2 hours...
Set up and tear down time and loading . . . another hour...
Income tax. . .?
Cost of gasoline ($2.25. a gallon here, much more in some places) and vehicle maintenance. . .?
Investment in equipment. . . Several thousand, and every time you move it something is at risk...
Time spent booking, invoicing, phone calls, correspondence ?
Years of experience, learning and developing talent, priceless.
However you look at it, it's NOT $100 an hour. You could consider that amount will keep you from losing money by taking the job?
Still worth doing though, if only to see the smiles on the faces of the audience!

Yes Don all well and true but what do you make staying home my dad would always say....that's a BIG FAT 0....on top of that your exposure to who knows who's watching you & asks for a business card etc,.. can lead to other gigs down the road too I have had that happen many many times...something to consider after all your just PLAYING MUSIC!!!.....so even if that $100 cuts down to $50.00 you come out ahead every time with a smile on your face beat playing 4 drunk filled hours in some club for $150.00 $175.00 for the whole night....unless they are BIG Tippers..
.....take care

Let me ask this - if they needed a plumber/electrician/ whatever, to do work in the club would they expect it for free? If so, they are wrong, but either way, if it comes up, I think you have to say that even though it is providing musical entertainment, it is still your JOB ... and if you agree to play for them for free you could end up losing a lucrative gig which DOUBLES the amount of money you are losing...

As for the $100 per hour NOT being $100 per hour all things considered, don't the same arguments hold true for any profession ... I recently had work done on my truck ... the shop charges about $125 per hour ... now I know part of that pays the overhead, but what I am also paying for are the years of experience and knowledge of the mechanics, which is probably worth more than $125 an hour ... it's no different with us ...

It comes down to choices ... For the most part, I take care of the lawn etc. around my house, and about 1 acre is cleared land ... but certain times of the year, I hire a landscaper to do the 'heavy cleanup', because I would rather play a couple of gigs to pay him then do all that weeding etc. myself ...

As we all know, NH's are not cheap establishments when it comes to the cost residents pay..... and we have several high-grade NHs around this neck of the woods. We have this one local guy who plays the guitar and sings quite well, and...Not sure if he does it for access to the ladies or what, but he plays all the local NHs for gratis. He's very good at playing and singing and he also works in some of the local watering holes for pay... Yet he chooses to do the NH gigs for nada.

I agree that plumbers and carpenters shouldn't be expected to go around giving their services away, yet there are those musicians who have no problem providing music services for free. I am not currently plying the NH circuit but if I were, I would definitely be bothered by what this guy is doing as it has to be impacting "expectations" from the ADs around town.

When you get right down to it, just like good plumbing, good music doesn't come without many many hours of practice and studying (not to mention equipment investment and transport). It's a shame that guys like this (and some AD's) don't see it from that standpoint.

Don, you hit the nail on the head, my friend. I've done this analysis several times on this and other forums. The breakdown, or bottom line, so to speak, is how much do you net from a $125 per hour job? In real terms, it's usually less than $50 per hour net. Most musician/entertainers are not business people - that's a fact! They rarely look at the bottom line, then at the end of the year, wonder how in the hell they are going to pay the taxes on their income. I know several that deal strictly in cash, never keep records or receipts and figure no one will ever find out - HA! Two of my fellow entertainers discovered this is not, and never has been, the case. The IRS nailed them both to the tune of more than $20,000 in taxes, fines and fees, and that was after they had to shell out another $10,000 for a high priced tax attorney.

Bill, stick to your guns. If they don't ask, then you don't have to worry about it. If they do, give them a price, one that you feel is fair. If they don't go for it, it's their loss.

Good luck,

Gary

I've been asked to do free photography, do taxes for friends (10-15 people a year), loan instruments (all of the time), contribute finished films...everything I do, including playing.

For friends, I may play for a retirement dinner and just not send a bill. Once a week, I play for a private party and have a check cut to my Nursing Home reform charity. That way, the charge is tax deductible.

My experience is, if someone asks you to do anything free, that's what it is worth to them.

Russ

My experience is, if someone asks you to do anything free, that's what it is worth to them.

Russ [/quote]

That's a great line I will remember. I have done free gigs for Charities and friends and it's always been appreciated .
I think I've over thought this and if it comes up I will just talk to the Treasurer in private and state my case. He's a good guy and will understand. As others have said its not worth the stress.

I like the point that was made-----i.e., if too greedy, or your standards are too high, you run the risk of sitting home and rarely playing (what thrill is that?), or offering your services on occasion to various charities, or whatnot, that often lead to paying gigs, once folks are exposed to what you do. That’s happened to me many times.

I will play for free if it is truly a worthy cause, but not for greedy NH's that soak the clientel and looking for freebees to enhance their bottom line. If you start that without a definite agreement they expect it always.

Hi Bill:

Someone said..."Double-Edged Sword!" No matter what "line" of music you happen to serve... today's generation seems to have devalued music (...and entertainment) to a point where it should be "free." In the final analysis... we must do what our musical hearts tell us. Thank goodness I don't perform. After reading Don Mason's "ledger"... it sure explains the "monetary aspect" of our expensive habits. I know you will "do the right thing." You always do! ----Dave Rice

Think INTERNET. The fact that you can download for FREE almost any song produced since 1920, is a testament to the 'value' of music these days. It's TECHNOLOGY that has devalued music, not a handful of guys playing gratis. In a sense, Arrangers could be included in this 'devaluing'. The fact that 1 person can accomplish (however poorly) what used to take 5-9 people (thereby reducing the cost of providing 'live' music) is a classic example of devaluing music/entertainment. AND....it's a two-edged sword. Individual OMB's may make a few bucks more but musicians in general, make a lot less (and work much less frequently).

If we're being completely honest (few people are), very few semi-pro week-end warriors even break even with their musical endeavors, and if not for supplemental income from their 'real' jobs, would be homeless, divorced, and living off the edible parts of their instruments (wood has lots of fiber ). Let's face it, unless you are a highly trained professional and/or associated with a 'name' act, your chances of making a decent living is minuscule. JMO.

chas

Not to drag this on but you won't believe the request I got last night. I've done a few freebies for my communitie's social gatherings. Played and DJ'd for a "girls night out party" at the pool and just DJ'd some summer songs for the summer cookout and put on some backround music for the community Thanksgiving get together. I also did an impromptu Hurricane Party cookout in my driveway with the nearby neighbors and did all Storm related Songs.
Well, I'm cursed with this talent, LOL! They like me so much they requested I do all their monthly events this coming year. Yes, part of it is the free factor but they all said they never had such a good time especially at the "girls night" It did turn out to be a fun night. I had them up on the floor so much they were running over to the pool to soak their feet.
I answered back that I would be glad to help out but we need to sit down and talk it over.
No good deed goes unpunished.

Are there doctors, lawyers, plumbers, yard maintenance guys, nurses, restaurant owners, etc. in the group you're playing for? Tell them you will be happy to provide the music, if they assure you that you can call on them for free service when you need it!

My community fairly upscale and is mixed with lots of professional retirees and younger families. Unfortunatly the entertainment Committee is give a very small budget so there's no way they could pay. Lots of them are my friends here so I don't want to seem greedy. My wife say just do it for fun but then I tell her to me its a matter of respect AND I'd like to buy a new easy to set up sound system so who pays for that ?
And the old argument "oh he's just playing music" as though its not a real job. As Capt. Russ said. It has no value.
I think when I sit down with them and tell them I can't do them all they'll realize you can't always get something for nothing.

Don,
Loved your quote below.

Tell them "Sure as long as the caterers, bartenders, waitresses and venue are also donating their services.

Jerryghr

Theses are all within the community events. Low budget, BYOB, donated appitizers and desserts, etc. Just get togethers for the community members.

If we're being completely honest (few people are), very few semi-pro week-end warriors even break even with their musical endeavors, and if not for supplemental income from their 'real' jobs, would be homeless, divorced, and living off the edible parts of their instruments (wood has lots of fiber ). Let's face it, unless you are a highly trained professional and/or associated with a 'name' act, your chances of making a decent living is minuscule. JMO.

chas[/quote]
You got that right. !!
I used to do very well back in the day. Played part time and paid for new equipment and had a lot of fun with the extra money. My real job as a teacher paid the bills.

You're right. Playing live-4 night is a wash...$150.00. My serious income comes from production of business related, broadcast quality video. My advantage is the quality of the tracks. Even the higher paying live jobs are business related...a reception for a foreign dignitary....the president of a foreign firm I do work for, etc.

If I did music only, I'd probably not have a weight issue, I'd be starving to death.

What I try to tell everyone is that there is a lot of work today, it's just drastically different from the past. Literally every YouTube posting, TV show and radio broadcast has an audio track.

And that's good for some of us...really good!


Russ

I am sure that is true, but there are few Captain Russ around.

I was very fortunate in the music business, however, this was not by chance. I have been in business for myself since 1975 and I treated every venture as a full time business, not just a method of making some extra money while having fun.

Not only did I put my heart and soul into the music, but I also put every ounce of my being into the business aspects, which is what must be done with every kind of business if you want to be successful. I know so many musicians and entertainers that are pretty good at being musicians and entertainers, but the vast majority are NOT businessmen, which is the key ingredient.

First and foremost, you must be good at what you do, musically. If not, well, starvation is just around the corner.

Next, in order to operate ANY small business, you must be a jack of all trades and be fairly proficient at every one of those jobs. You need to be a bookkeeper, tax accountant, billing manager, PR person, advertising agency, promoter, booking agency, electrical equipment repair expert, van driver, computer guru, and more. You need to be able to set up a retirement program, a working budget, and be willing to work all holidays, seven days a week, 365 days a year. You need to know when to say NO, and when to say YES! You need to be compassionate and caring when working the senior circuit, and be able to schoomze both the audiences and ADs when necessary. You must be prompt, courteous and able to work with people from all walks of life.

If you become proficient at all of the above, you have a shot at being fairly successful in the musical entertainment industry. Yes, you can even make enough money to support your family, even take a day or two off and go to the beach or lake with your spouse and children, then go back to work just as if it was your first gig and you were trying to impress everyone with your very best performance of your life. If you are not willing to do all those things, well, you'll make enough to break even with your business expenses, or NOT!

Good luck,

Gary (the old guy.)